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	<title>Comments for Sol Ascendans - The Website of Alex Sumner</title>
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	<link>http://solascendans.com</link>
	<description>Novelist and writer on the Occult</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:09:07 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on The Quadruple Goddess by alexsumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/02/14/the-quadruple-goddess/#comment-2042</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alexsumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Feb 2012 11:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1942#comment-2042</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[My understanding of &quot;The White Goddess&quot; was not that that was the conclusion to be drawn from Robert Graves&#039; sources, but: &lt;em&gt;Robert Graves said&lt;/em&gt; &quot;that is the conclusion to be drawn from my sources,&quot; or words to that effect. Graves&#039; treatment of e.g. Frazier may be poetic and highly subjective, but it&#039;s hardly scholarly.

Mind you, all attempts at historical revisionism are highly subjective to some degree, so the question becomes not &quot;who is telling the truth, and who not?&quot; but &quot;who has the best quality bullshit?&quot; ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My understanding of &#8220;The White Goddess&#8221; was not that that was the conclusion to be drawn from Robert Graves&#8217; sources, but: <em>Robert Graves said</em> &#8220;that is the conclusion to be drawn from my sources,&#8221; or words to that effect. Graves&#8217; treatment of e.g. Frazier may be poetic and highly subjective, but it&#8217;s hardly scholarly.</p>
<p>Mind you, all attempts at historical revisionism are highly subjective to some degree, so the question becomes not &#8220;who is telling the truth, and who not?&#8221; but &#8220;who has the best quality bullshit?&#8221; <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on The Quadruple Goddess by Mark Carter</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/02/14/the-quadruple-goddess/#comment-2039</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Carter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 20:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1942#comment-2039</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, a closer reading of The White Goddess reveals that Graves was hardly the first person to suggest the concept of the triple goddess.  Similar ideas of a seasonal goddess who alternates between young, middle age, and old age is an underlying motif of Frazer&#039;s Golden Bough and Harrison&#039;s Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion--both were published decades before The White Goddess.  Similar ideas also underlie Robert Briffault’s 1927 study The Mothers and M. Esther Harding’s 1938 study Women’s Mysteries Ancient and Modern.  Frazer and Harrison are two of Graves&#039;s primary sources and he cites them several times.  He never cites Briffault or Harding, but a comparison between their ideas suggests he had read them.  Graves cites Briffault in other works and many of the artifacts Graves describes in The White Goddess appear in Harding&#039;s book--often with the exact same info given.  

Lastly, there was Charles Seymour&#039;s inspirational essay The Old Religion: A Study of the Symbolism used in Woman’s Mysteries which examines Harding&#039;s work.  These essays weren&#039;t published until after The White Goddess and Graves probably never read them, but Seymour was a friend of Christine Hartley.  They did occult work together and Seymour&#039;s essays were circulated &quot;underground&quot; among occult circles long before Graves published The White Goddess and perhaps even before Gardner published Witchcraft Today (1954).  Seymour cites not only Harding, but also Frazer, Harrison, Margaret Murray, Celtic historian John Rhys, Charles Leland (author of Aradia: Gospel of the Witches), and Mead&#039;s translations of the Hermetic texts.  The concept of a triple goddess could easily have entered neopagan circles from Seymour&#039;s works rather than Graves. 

None of these sources depict the old age phase of the goddess as anything like &quot;a nice old Grandma&quot;.  In fact, she becomes the embodiment of death; a sort of female grim reaper.  Much of The White Goddess (and Graves&#039;s later poetry) examines the concept of death personified as a female.  Frazer explored the same idea in European folklore, where traditions often suggested that the young goddess who planted the crops became the same old woman who chopped them down and ate them--an attitude that he extended to human kings in his hypothetical recreation of early matriarchal cultures.  Graves spends much of The White Goddess drawing parallels between these early kings and poets who spend much of their life writing romantic love poetry only to be betrayed by a female who turns bitter over time, eventually equating to the female embodiment of death.  

In all honesty, Graves wanted to write about the goddess as a pentad, with 5 phases which would probably connect to the 5 points of the pentagram and 5 phases of life which Graves placed on a circular calendar much like the Wiccan &quot;wheel of the year&quot; but he was unable to develop the idea fully.  The idea of a triple goddess was, in fact, already so entrenched in Western literature that Graves had a hard time trying to develop the other 2 phases.  The White Goddess mentions the goddess as a pentad at least once but only the 3 phases are developed because they were the easiest to find evidence for in the ancient paganism and later literary traditions which Graves researched.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, a closer reading of The White Goddess reveals that Graves was hardly the first person to suggest the concept of the triple goddess.  Similar ideas of a seasonal goddess who alternates between young, middle age, and old age is an underlying motif of Frazer&#8217;s Golden Bough and Harrison&#8217;s Prolegomena to the Study of Greek Religion&#8211;both were published decades before The White Goddess.  Similar ideas also underlie Robert Briffault’s 1927 study The Mothers and M. Esther Harding’s 1938 study Women’s Mysteries Ancient and Modern.  Frazer and Harrison are two of Graves&#8217;s primary sources and he cites them several times.  He never cites Briffault or Harding, but a comparison between their ideas suggests he had read them.  Graves cites Briffault in other works and many of the artifacts Graves describes in The White Goddess appear in Harding&#8217;s book&#8211;often with the exact same info given.  </p>
<p>Lastly, there was Charles Seymour&#8217;s inspirational essay The Old Religion: A Study of the Symbolism used in Woman’s Mysteries which examines Harding&#8217;s work.  These essays weren&#8217;t published until after The White Goddess and Graves probably never read them, but Seymour was a friend of Christine Hartley.  They did occult work together and Seymour&#8217;s essays were circulated &#8220;underground&#8221; among occult circles long before Graves published The White Goddess and perhaps even before Gardner published Witchcraft Today (1954).  Seymour cites not only Harding, but also Frazer, Harrison, Margaret Murray, Celtic historian John Rhys, Charles Leland (author of Aradia: Gospel of the Witches), and Mead&#8217;s translations of the Hermetic texts.  The concept of a triple goddess could easily have entered neopagan circles from Seymour&#8217;s works rather than Graves. </p>
<p>None of these sources depict the old age phase of the goddess as anything like &#8220;a nice old Grandma&#8221;.  In fact, she becomes the embodiment of death; a sort of female grim reaper.  Much of The White Goddess (and Graves&#8217;s later poetry) examines the concept of death personified as a female.  Frazer explored the same idea in European folklore, where traditions often suggested that the young goddess who planted the crops became the same old woman who chopped them down and ate them&#8211;an attitude that he extended to human kings in his hypothetical recreation of early matriarchal cultures.  Graves spends much of The White Goddess drawing parallels between these early kings and poets who spend much of their life writing romantic love poetry only to be betrayed by a female who turns bitter over time, eventually equating to the female embodiment of death.  </p>
<p>In all honesty, Graves wanted to write about the goddess as a pentad, with 5 phases which would probably connect to the 5 points of the pentagram and 5 phases of life which Graves placed on a circular calendar much like the Wiccan &#8220;wheel of the year&#8221; but he was unable to develop the idea fully.  The idea of a triple goddess was, in fact, already so entrenched in Western literature that Graves had a hard time trying to develop the other 2 phases.  The White Goddess mentions the goddess as a pentad at least once but only the 3 phases are developed because they were the easiest to find evidence for in the ancient paganism and later literary traditions which Graves researched.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Which Witch? by Live! At The Witch Trials &#124; Sol Ascendans &#8211; The Website of Alex Sumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2011/10/28/which-witch/#comment-2038</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Live! At The Witch Trials &#124; Sol Ascendans &#8211; The Website of Alex Sumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 12:58:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1815#comment-2038</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] As I said in a comment to another post, if modern standards of justice were applied to all those of accused of witchcraft in the past, [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] As I said in a comment to another post, if modern standards of justice were applied to all those of accused of witchcraft in the past, [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Quadruple Goddess by alexsumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/02/14/the-quadruple-goddess/#comment-2037</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alexsumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:46:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1942#comment-2037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Goddess herself is sovereign &lt;em&gt;in toto&lt;/em&gt;. To say that one aspect alone is sovereign is to deny that status to the other aspects. By ascribing divine status to &lt;strong&gt;all&lt;/strong&gt; categories of the Goddess instead of the one that happens to coincide with your own state in life, you come to reverence all women, as opposed to just worshipping your own ego.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Goddess herself is sovereign <em>in toto</em>. To say that one aspect alone is sovereign is to deny that status to the other aspects. By ascribing divine status to <strong>all</strong> categories of the Goddess instead of the one that happens to coincide with your own state in life, you come to reverence all women, as opposed to just worshipping your own ego.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Quadruple Goddess by Kerri Ryan</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/02/14/the-quadruple-goddess/#comment-2036</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kerri Ryan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 08:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1942#comment-2036</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dear Adeptus
Being at the other side of the mother archetype, i.e. 50 years of age, I hardly call myself a crone, and thought I would read that you were going  to include a &#039;sovereign&#039; aspect, which is what women my age call the period between mothering and really wrinkly.  This too is an aspect where women in the 21st Century are living so much longer and at 50 to 60 are still very active and not at all crone like.  This is where women claim their sovereignty before they don the cloak of cronedom.
So instead of the quadruple goddess, you better think of the quintuplet goddess of five aspects.
Kerri]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Adeptus<br />
Being at the other side of the mother archetype, i.e. 50 years of age, I hardly call myself a crone, and thought I would read that you were going  to include a &#8216;sovereign&#8217; aspect, which is what women my age call the period between mothering and really wrinkly.  This too is an aspect where women in the 21st Century are living so much longer and at 50 to 60 are still very active and not at all crone like.  This is where women claim their sovereignty before they don the cloak of cronedom.<br />
So instead of the quadruple goddess, you better think of the quintuplet goddess of five aspects.<br />
Kerri</p>
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		<title>Comment on Adeptus Major by alexsumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/02/08/adeptus-major/#comment-2025</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alexsumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 18:58:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1938#comment-2025</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I should point out (I should have remembered to do so when writing the blog post) that it is known that Felkin and Waite were in contact with one another, so that would explain the similarities between their two rituals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I should point out (I should have remembered to do so when writing the blog post) that it is known that Felkin and Waite were in contact with one another, so that would explain the similarities between their two rituals.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Guess What I&#8217;m Invoking by Jorge</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2012/01/29/guess-what-im-invoking/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jorge]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 23:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1915#comment-1982</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The SALAMANDER?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The SALAMANDER?</p>
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		<title>Comment on Fiction Is Stranger Than Truth by alexsumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2011/04/14/fiction-is-stranger-than-truth/#comment-1927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alexsumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 19:20:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1438#comment-1927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the offer! Although I am not opposed to the idea, over the next five months or so I expect to be incredibly busy, so I could not guarantee contributing except rarely. Good luck with &quot;The Infinity Network.&quot; :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the offer! Although I am not opposed to the idea, over the next five months or so I expect to be incredibly busy, so I could not guarantee contributing except rarely. Good luck with &#8220;The Infinity Network.&#8221; <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>Comment on Fiction Is Stranger Than Truth by Chaos Magick</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2011/04/14/fiction-is-stranger-than-truth/#comment-1920</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chaos Magick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jan 2012 05:05:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1438#comment-1920</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Would you be interested in some collaborated work? I run a large network of blogs/and a group called The Infinity Network.

We have an E-Zine and would love to feature your work and generate you some traffic back to your webpage.

The email I left is valid and we can be reached any time, If you follow the link to our webpage we also have a Chaos Magick chat room if that is better.

Looking Forward.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Would you be interested in some collaborated work? I run a large network of blogs/and a group called The Infinity Network.</p>
<p>We have an E-Zine and would love to feature your work and generate you some traffic back to your webpage.</p>
<p>The email I left is valid and we can be reached any time, If you follow the link to our webpage we also have a Chaos Magick chat room if that is better.</p>
<p>Looking Forward.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Which Witch? by alexsumner</title>
		<link>http://solascendans.com/2011/10/28/which-witch/#comment-1917</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alexsumner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jan 2012 13:56:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://solascendans.com/?p=1815#comment-1917</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This at least is a historical source. Where are you getting your figures from?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This at least is a historical source. Where are you getting your figures from?</p>
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